Following Jesus in Nursing

Welcome to Following Jesus in Nursing, a podcast for nurses and students produced by InterVarsity's Nurses Christian Fellowship. I'm your host, Lara K. Kiser, and together, we'll be inspired by our guest stories, tackle big questions with experts in the field, and walk together in following Jesus at the intersection of faith and nursing.

I love being reminded that God created us as emotional beings. We have minds. We have have feelers. And so if he created them, then I would think because he, you know, wants our well-being, then he would want those to be as well as possible. And so that's where the whole health care and theology can have a nice relationship.

Mental health is such a significant aspect of wellness, and today's episode is part of my conversation with Skip McDonald, where she talks about taking care of her own mental health even while caring for others as a mental health nurse. So here we go.

Well, I'm excited to talk to you today, Skip.

Thank you. I'm willing to share what little I know.

Oh, I'm sure it's more than a little. I'd love to start with just a brief introduction so that we can get to know you.

I'm coming from the Atlanta, Georgia area. I live in suburb, Smyrna, Georgia, but it's in the greater metro Atlanta. And, yeah, I've been on InterVarsity staff, I've lost count. I think 31 years.

And a good number of those years, I was bivocational as a nurse. And so now my primary role is spiritual formation specialist for our southeast region. So I get to serve students and staff, both regionally and some nationally when I'm invited and love that. Yeah. And then just as a nurse, was in many roles, did some research, did hospital nursing, public health, home health, nurse educator, and landed on mental health as my baby. So, yeah, I've had the chance to care for a lot of people in my life and, it's really been a privilege. I am a single gal. God called me to be single when I was 30 years old, and I have walked that walk, me and Jesus, and a lot of folk who've loved me well. So I'm very thankful for both my biological and my huge spiritual family. So I'm Skip to some. Auntie Skip. Aunt Skip. You know, you name it. I just feel really blessed by God that he promised that, you know, even in calling me to be single, that he would care for the relationships that I would need. And then I'm a member of Renovation Church here in Atlanta and love it. And it's a church for the young ones, and I'm one of the seasoned ones in the church and really enjoy being there. So that's kind of me in a nutshell.

I love that. And there you are definitely well loved because when I joined NCF staff, I think every other person was like, do you know Skip McDonald? She's the best. She's so wise. So I'm excited to talk with you.

Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

Well, we are gonna get into mental health and anxiety. So we'll talk a little bit more about that in a little bit, but you've done a lot of research and writing and speaking and teaching and nursing around mental health. So before we get into the the specifics around it, I would just love to hear how has your journey of learning around these topics impacted you personally?

Yeah. And that's just such a great question. Whenever I write on most of the topics that I write on, it doesn't matter what it is. I run myself through the grid.

So as I'm writing, I'm like, how you doing? You know, how are you doing with this? You know, what's going in your life with this? It's really important for me to practice what I preach. I just don't wanna be one of those that has a lot of lip service, a lot of stuff that I'm trying to tell everybody else what to do, and then I'm not caring for myself.

So when God called me to specifically focus on mental health, I was shocked. Number 1, I didn't know my ministry was going that direction, but I just found myself as I was studying and researching and presenting and all of that, just to make sure that I was doing okay. I don't want to make sure that everybody else is okay and you find me in the ditch. What is that?

Like, do I not care enough about myself to put some of these things into practice? Am I so out of focuse that I don't you know? And I just don't wanna live that way. So that's how I seek to apply these things to my life. Obviously, I don't do it perfectly, but, you know, it's on my radar. I know what to do. I know what I can do. So, yeah, that that's how it has affected me and continuously does.

Yeah. That makes so much sense as a campus staff minister. I feel like there's so many things that were caught more than taught, and I felt like students were watching more than I realized, especially my early years of, like they were paying attention to not just what I was doing in ministry, but how I was doing ministry. And if I'm off in the ditch, that's how you know, it's not just what I'm saying. They're gonna emulate that, too.

So really caring for others' mental health is we have to be caring for our own as well. Any specific stories that you have about Jesus meeting you and your own mental health or anxiety?

Yeah. I think for me in that, I come from a history of codependency and approval addict. And when I came to that place of just recognizing, you know, this is not okay. And, you know, what do I do with that? And just, I tell this story sometimes.

I said there there were times when, you know, God was just really speaking to me and what was happening in my life. I said, I felt like I was laying on the couch, and Jesus is in the chair counseling me. You know? Because I you know, he would just call me out on things. And somebody said to me one time, how do you find all these books?

This is an interesting story. I got this book on codependency that I was taking one of my girls through. And as I was taking her through that book, I realized Oh, that's what I had. Oh my goodness. I didn't even know what to call it or anything.

I'm like, oh my goodness. So, you know, Jesus has just met me. You know, I went through a whole time when I was in junior high school, unfortunately, I was introduced to pornography. And so dealt with that whole thing for years, and then that led into masturbation. So just all kinda crazies.

And the Lord just is so gracious, and he meets us where we are and, you know, enabled me to walk through it, walk out of it. And so I'm just really grateful I would say, for the most part, I'm a free woman from those those strongholds and those things that that bind us because it's easy to stay stuck in the things if we don't allow the Lord to meet us in those places. So those are just some of my stories of how God has met me in my own challenges and struggles. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. Could you just explain what mental health nursing is a little bit for those who don't know? I don't have a nursing background, and then I'm sure many of our listeners are nursing students, still kind of exploring what type of nursing they wanna go into. So can you describe what mental health nurses do?

That's a loaded question. Well, I remember when I was in nursing school, I remember thinking well, one of my favorite instructors was my mental health instructor, and I've always had this interest in what makes the mind tick, why do we do what we do, you know, that kind of thing. But it took years before I actually pursued working in mental health. So you have your inpatient programs in hospitals and outpatient programs as in mental health that you could work in as well. So I did. And then I also worked in an adolescent treatment center. So they're just a variety of places where you can work as a mental health nurse. So I did the residential treatment center as a nurse on the night shift. And then I worked inpatient at a couple of hospitals. Then I had the opportunity to work as an outpatient nurse and loved that. That was my most favorite. And so, you know, there are psychiatrist offices. You could work as a nurse, as well. So, mental health centers, you know, where you could work. I'm sure there's so many more places now than even when I was doing it in hands on nursing.

Yeah. And you said outpatient was your favorite. What did you enjoy about that?

Yeah. I had more time with the patients. So my role was I did physical assessments and not so much hands on, but getting their histories, their their medication history, those kinds of things. So I could just take my time doing that with them, get to know them some. And I had a couple of them. I got so tickled. Are you a therapist too? And I went, no. I'm not a therapist. I'm a nurse, and I'm good with that. You know? Well, you should be. Thank you so much. I appreciate that, but now I'm good. So I, you know, so I could just really, really enjoy just sitting with them. I love hearing people's stories. You know, a lot of them were hard, of course, but just to be able to sit with people in their story. Yeah.

Because it felt like sacred ground.

I love that. What are some of the biggest or most surprising things that you've learned about mental health over the years?

Well, mental health challenges come in all colors, shapes, and sizes. I don't care how much money you got. I don't care how much money you don't have. I mean, doesn't matter where you live. It's none of that.

And so just recognizing that. And, you know, too, I think one of the saddest biggest surprises was how much our young people are struggling. It was heartbreaking. Oh, just heart wrenching sometimes when I worked in adolescent psychiatry and, just you know? Yeah, there's something about seeing young people struggle.

I mean, you know, we as adults and older adults or whatever, we've lived a long time, so we got we got enough stuff to deal with. But when they're young and they're struggling so much. That was tough. It was tough, and yet I was grateful to try to extend to them whatever love and care I could as a nurse. So God really blessed me in my rapport with them.

You know, because there is especially when I worked in adolescent psych, it was at a treatment center residential, so they lived there. And some of the kids were really, really struggling, and God blessed me. I had a good rapport. I don't think I ever got attacked or anything like that. You know?

And I say that because I intentionally try to treat all of my patients, but specifically the kids who were having such a tough time, as a person of dignity and value. And, you know, people can tell when you really care about them. They can tell.

Oh, true.

A baby probably could. You know, there's some babies or whatever. They're like, I don't want anything to do with them. You know? So that was probably the biggest and hardest surprise was how much our young people are struggling.

Yeah. Absolutely. How should we be responding to that? Because I've heard a lot of startling statistics, especially since the start of COVID of young people, especially, like, preteens. I think that really surprised me. Because, like, teens, adolescents, I think that there's something about that that makes sense to me. It's a hard season of life. But I think the younger ones, like you're saying, you know, and the preteen age really surprised me. I am curious what are your thoughts about how Christians can be serving young people better?

Yeah. I just wonder how well we're doing at really listening to them. You know, because we all wanna be heard. I don't care how old we are. Yeah. Even a little babbling toddler wants be heard. They're trying to tell you stuff. So I just like, are we really listening? And not only listening, but how much are we including them in in their own care? Like, how often do we ask them? You know?

Well , what do you feel you need, or how can I help? You know, those kinds of things. I think it could just really make a difference if we, in the church, in Christendom, instead of bashing someone because they don't believe the way we do or they're struggling or whatever. How about sitting and having a conversation? And out of that, exploring with them.

So how can we help? How can we help?

Yeah. And it strikes me how opposite that is. Like, even when I was growing up I was born in 1988. So even when I was growing up, I felt like there was still that lingering message of children should be seen and not heard. My parents didn't necessarily say that to me, but I remember them telling stories of hearing it from their elders. It seems like quite a shift from that, I don't know, idea that children shouldn't be heard. And now saying, we really should be listening to what children have to say.

Yeah. They're smart people. I mean, you know, they don't have all the street common sense stuff like adults, but they've got their own smarts. And if we are able, as best we can, to steward that, then that will make their life a whole lot easier the older they get, I think. You know, I'm not raising any children, so people listening who may have had to raise them young as they probably like, lady, you have no idea. But that's my 2 cents worth anyway.

Well, those of us without kids can do some extra listening, you know, to help the parents out.

That's right. That's right. So Auntie Skip comes in handy. Auntie Skip comes in.

Well, kind of going along with that, it seems like health care and approaches to health care have changed quite a bit over the years across generations and ethnic background. I think various cultures and families have different approaches on mental health, and it seems like it's come a long way recently. Like, it used to be something you just don't talk about at all. At least where I come from, it was something that people started talking about more and more. It might be more acceptable to have a counselor.

And now a lot of people have a therapist, and it's not something that people hide anymore. I think that is great that we're putting it out there more. We're accepting, more accepting about talking about it in public. What are some of the changes in perspective that you've noticed over the years?

Yeah. One of the changes that I've noticed that I'm so thankful for is that our churches and ministries are engaging more around mental health. And now, you know, I can speak for the Black church because I'm Black. Now we're still real slow with that. Because you know, it can be hard to trust people.

You don't know what they're gonna do with your information, you know, will it be used against me? And it's probably for more than just Black folk, but I know for us. And I think other cultures that are not a part of the host culture may feel that way some. So I'm thankful to see, very thankful to see the shift happening in churches and in ministries. Yeah.

Yeah. How do you see that showing up, like programs or just the way people talk about it? What manifestations of that change are you seeing?

Yeah. So it's been, I think, right before the pandemic or after. I can't remember. But one of my supporting churches, the pastor did a series on mental health. I have never ever. He covered, like, 5 or 6 areas, I'm like, whoa. And I even told him like, wow, you're brave. You're brave. So you and I, well, I should know this, but I think May is mental health month. We have had times at our church where we would have, like, a mental health session even on Sunday mornings. 2 or 3 of those where we have a mental health professional come in, and they'll share, and then people could submit questions.

So those kinds of things. So you're just kind of hearing it more in different places. And I don't know how many I know at least a couple of churches had me do some mental health training with them. And that just so spoke to my heart. Wow. It was important enough that they wanted their people trained to help.

So, yeah, those kinds of ways. And I don't know if it's more. I don't have any stats on this, but I'm wondering what the percentages of churches that now have some kind of counseling center or at least have places they can refer people to, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah.

That's so encouraging to me. And you've got degrees in both health care and theology. So I would love to hear your thoughts about how those two interact. And, I mean, is there a both-and approach here? It sounds like you're saying there is. So I'd love to hear how you see those things going together.

Right. From my perspective, there's a both-and and I'll start with just giving the example of just medication, you know, that we use for mental health. Some people in the faith pooh pooh that. I'll never forget. I was at work one day in the outpatient department, and we had a patient who was concerned about her faith and taking the medications that they were suggesting for her. And so they brought me in. Nurse Skip, can you come? That's why they would call me Nurse Skip. Can you can you come here for a minute?

And they wanted me to talk to her, and this was in their group setting. And I did, and it's like, you know, well, ma'am, you know, if we have high blood pressure, we have to take high blood pressure medicine. If we have a heart condition, we have to, you know, may have to take some. And so it's not any different if we need to take some medication for our mental health. Yeah. You know, we have to find the right kind just like we have to find the right one that works for any other condition we may have.

And, so if we are willing to trust medicine, the medical world with these other areas of our lives, then I don't understand what's different. It doesn't communicate a lack of faith because I think that's where a lot of people, where they may struggle you know, I'm not trusting God if I take this medicine. Well, are you trusting God if you just had surgery and they said take it out? Alright. Yeah.

So just just helping people, you know, see that it's really okay. And I think I left the room going, I really think Jesus would be okay with you taking your medicine. Like, I do. So that that's my perspective. That's what I offered her, and that's what I say to people, you know.

Come on, guys. Because, you know, there are times when a person doesn't even need to take the medicine for a long time. But what can happen is if it's prescribed, then it's felt as though it can just kinda calm things down for a while. So then you can have the therapy or you can have the counseling where you can absorb it. Because if you can't, then neither will be helpful.

So both-and there, as far as therapists or counselors, that kind of thing, you know, there are those who prefer to have a Christian counselor or Christian therapist. That's each person's choice. And I'm sure there are therapists who don't know Jesus who probably can help. Now I will often hear people say, well, but I would prefer someone who has my faith background that can help me. And that's fair enough. So I also say not all counselors are created equal, so you don't need to go just anybody. If you can get a referral, get a referral. Not all are created equal. So please, if at all possible, get a referral before you go.

So then, you know, one final thing I'll say around this is that I just love being reminded that God created us as emotional beings. We have minds. We have feelers. And so if he created them, then I would think because he, you know, wants our well-being, then he would want those to be as well as possible. And so that's where the whole health care and theology can have a nice relationship If we just remember these things.

And when I worked as a nurse in outpatient, I would meet with people who were of different faiths and some kind of way, my faith would come up often and it's not like I was trying to push things on people. You know, I would just talk about my life or just whatever. But just being willing and able to respect people where they were, you know, their culture, their faith background, all of that. Yeah. There's a way to do that if we're willing.

I can agree to disagree with you lovingly. I don't have to be ugly. I don't have to you know, none of that. You know? It's like, okay. If that's how you see it, okay. You know? So yeah. So I think a big part of it is just the willingness to merge the two. Yeah. I think it's the willingness.

Yeah. That there's something to learn, I think, from each side. You know, each side has something to learn from each other. I had a number of different counselors and therapists throughout my life. And some have been believers and were excellent, and others were not a good fit for me who were believers and vice versa. I've had excellent counselors or therapists who had no spiritual background or, you know, faith.

Well, I love story time, so I would just love to hear a few stories of how you've seen Jesus show up in mental health nursing.

I had a patient who was going through withdrawals, and I can't remember if it was alcohol or drugs. I can't remember. Just having a terrible time. And, I think he cussed me out, you know, and so you just kinda have to remember, look, it ain't about me because you know, you don't even know me like that. But being willing and able to meet people at some of their lowest places and seeking as best as you can to treat them well regardless.

And he will forever be etched in my mind because I just remember thinking, wow. You know? And then I think of another situation at one of the hospitals, you know, because sometimes people, they're psychotic, and so they've lost touch with reality, you know, maybe hallucinating, that kind of thing. And, you know, there have been situations or times when a person is having a psychotic break. You don't touch them. You try to create an environment where they're safe until they can come out. You know, you have to protect yourself or them if they're gonna be harmful or anything like that. I just remember a woman who was having a psychotic break, and, it was so sad because she was hallucinating and that kind of thing. And we just had to stand around until she was able to come out of it. And because we tried not to restrain people if we could help it.

Sometimes we had to, you know, and she finally was able to, you know, and I would just remember standing there and just praying. So there are times I may not be able to do anything hands on or even speak in the moment, but I could always pray, you know, just seeking the Lord and asking him to be what that person needed at that given time.

We'll take a break here from the conversation with Skip and pick it back up in the next episode. In the meantime, be sure to check out our NCF membership at ncf-jcn.org and use the coupon code following for $10 off. Hey. Thanks for joining us for another inspiring episode of Following Jesus in Nursing. We hope you've been encouraged and equipped in integrating your faith with your nursing practice.

Be sure to check out our show notes for info about connecting with Nurses Christian Fellowship as well as links and resources mentioned in today's episode. And remember, as you go about your work as a nurse, you are not alone. Jesus is right there with you, guiding your steps and using you to bring healing to those in need. Thanks for listening to Following Jesus in Nursing, and may your faith continue to be a light in the world of health care.